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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2007, 21:49 
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I get you Kate :D


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2007, 22:43 
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Thanks Kate. I am glad that you cleared that up for us !

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2007, 23:29 
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I have to say I don't see an awful lot there that tell me that the real costs are really any different.

You seem to be saying:

One reason puppy prices are high because stud fees are unreasonably (my words) high - this seems part and parcel of this whole discussion.

We cannot introduce the A-word as a factor when so many have sought to brand it a myth.

Almost everything else you would cite is what people should expect of any breeder of any dog. Visit the puppies in your home, spend time talking to prospective buyers, feed the dogs on suitable-quality food etc

It still seems to me that, like any business where there is healthy (let's hope so but maybe this is really what's lacking) competition, the bits that anyone chooses to do over and above the norm - puppy packs etc - are what you have to do and want to do to provide exceptional service. Be aware too that a number of these things are really supposed to be included in the basics and a cursory check of the KC Code of Practice (across all KC breeds) shows that it requires these (eg written puppy info, details of worming etc) health checks etc (for labs and poodles it's pretty much the same set). FWIW these basics are likely to be the core of what we establish here as a voluntary CoP for Labradoodle breeders.

I really don't have any prejudices about people's motivations - I like a free market economy because it stabilises things and that's where we need to get. I would have to say that the single most-damaging thing for the welfare of Labradoodles over the last 5 years has been the price tag. I believe there is now some easing of the problem and this will help things.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 00:38 
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hi guys
Iam yet to breed my first litter (early next Yr) , so was not speaking as a voice of experience , just making the points that have so far stood out to me .At the moment the biggest difference seems to be is the time you spend educating your pupppy buyers about all aspects of labradoodles (where do you start :roll: ) My emails to them have been like essays :roll: :lol:
My Husbands uncle breeds Shiztu's(sp?) , when speaking with him about the phonecalls and inquries he gets they are very straight forward , every one of them knows what a shitztu looks like , wether they are big ,small , as there is no variation in coat type/size . If you are allergic to one shitzu , you will be allergic to another .
I got a phone call last week from a lady wanting a long ,straight coated Labradoodle ,definatley not curly , so I told her there was a high chance of curls , and There was no way I could Guarantee it would or wouldn't be curly .She didn't seem to understand the variation and was very set in what she wanted .Another 2 phonecalls today , 1 wanting a deffo non-smelling dog ! :roll: , and the other 1 wanted it to have the temperament of the lab and not too tall ! :roll: Not understanding that i can't predict the exact outcome ! I am sure that the phonecalls will increase as time goes on !
But I will make the point I have had some lovely families ring me too ! Just the majority have needed a full lesson on Labradoodles :lol:

I would be really keen for the experienced Labradoodle breeders who have already bred a litter to give there input on the things they have come up against and extra costs !

I sometimes find it really difficult to type what i want to say :roll: Is it just me ?? :oops:

Kate
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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 09:41 
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I think the miniature labradoodle matings are notoriously difficult to secure- and when I was looking for my mini I would often be told they were going to have litters that never materialised because the people doing it assumed once their bitch was in season that they'd be expecting pups nine weeks later.

Labradoodles are a new breed- and I know a lot of breeders on here are striving for a breed standard, therefore, selecting the bitch adn the stud is a careful, long and expensive process which is full of set-backs, let downs and unforseen problems.

I didnt just want a healthy pup, i wanted a pup from parents of good temperments, from a breeder who would support me long after I'd handed over my money, and I can honestly Louie was worth every penny.

It isnt JUST labradoodles that command high prices- if you bought a poodle they'd cost the same so I dont really see an issue in a price of around £1000 as long as the breeder is responisble and caring- it is the puppy farmers charging these amounts that I object to.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 09:57 
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I do think we must bear in mind that many breeds require new owners to be fully briefed by the breeders.Very specific care is needed for the short faced breeds,dogs with grooming needs over and above the regular brush and comb,dogs with developed guarding instincts,etc,etc.

Katherine

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 11:30 
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Before I comment I feel I should tell you that, like Kate, I am not an experienced breeder. I am expecting my first litter of Labradoodle pups in October. I have set a maximum price for the pups which is considerable lower than the amount I paid for either of my dogs. I took this decision based on the number of pups available not because I think my pups will be of a lower quality than anyone elses. The final amount paid may not be the maximum price as that will be the amount for the 'best' pups in the litter based on coat type and health (not sex or colour). When I purchased my dogs I paid a premium for both of them, for Scarlet because of her sex and for Scrumpy because of his colour. I chose the breeders very carefully because of the healthtests they had carried out prior to breeding, the information they were happy to supply, the temperament of the parents and the way the litter had been reared and socialised. Both breeders were aware that I was considering breeding and steered me towards the pups that they thought would be most suitable.
My dogs have both been healthtested and allowed to mature before I made the final decision to go ahead based on health and temperament. At the end of the day, as Mark pointed out, they are not pedigree dogs BUT the way I will treat them will not be any different because of that so why should I charge any less than a pedigree dog breeder - lets face it many breeders of pedigree dogs do not go that extra mile for their litters.
I have not paid a stud fee as I own the dog, I have however paid for his upkeep, his healthtests, his kenneling during my bitches seasons and all the other sundries that come with keeping a dog in tip top health, the same with my bitch. I have spent countless hours researching breeding, diet etc etc. The pups will be loved and cherished from the day they are born. Just like Kate, I have spent lots of time educating potential owners of my own pups and also those who have subsequently gone on to buy from others and those who have decided not to proceed once they know the facts. I have also visited a number of 'clients' in their own homes with my dogs to help with allergy testing.
I have not done any calculations to estimate whether the overall price of the litter will cover the cost of breeding them, that was never the point for me. My aim was to produce a healthy, happy pet Labradoodle who will brighten the life of his/her new family as my dogs have for mine.
My dogs and their pups will have the best of everything - there are many other breeders (of whatever breed) out there who cannot say the same and yet their prices do not reflect that.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 14:02 
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I do agree with Karen that the amount to be charged for a well brought up labradoodle puppy whose parents are of excellent temperament and have had all the necessary health checks is essentially no different than that charged for a pedigree dog.

The trouble is that fashion dictates many of these prices and there is a wild fluctuation in prices of different breeds of dogs...Many tiny dogs of the type seen in fashion magazines are now commanding prices up to £2000.When we first bought an OES,it was an expensive breed-then it became a cheap breed because of the pet breeding bounce and because a huge number ended up in rescue when it became apparent to their stupid owners that the dogs could not groom themselves........

Essentially everything comes back to education;if people did their research properly puppy farmers simply would not exist as there would be no demand for their pups.People do not have to do much work to determine that generally speaking you do not expect to be offered a variety of breeds when you go to choose a puppy.....

I think a lot of problems are now arising because some pet owners anthropomorphise their dogs and decide that they must be allowed to experience parenthood or they realise that they might be able to make a substantial sum of money(£8-10,000)and cannot resist the temptation.Unlike certain breeds,doodles should be straightforward to whelp and most of the time people will get away without having to incur huge vet bills,etc.

It is fairly apparent when reading the posts on a site such as this who the caring breeders are-and obviously both Kate and Karen(Chelsea) fall into this category.As we live in a free market economy it is up to breeders to charge what they believe to be fair and appropriate prices and for prospective owners to buy only from responible breeders.Personally,I love the diversity of labradoodles and would not want to see a breed standard-but I would like to see an association of doodle breeders who have signed up to a code of practise which is enforceable.

Katherine

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2007, 14:23 
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One thing that really annoys me is people charging more for bitches than dogs or charging different prices for different coloured pups from the same litter :evil: . Each pup costs exactly the same to rear as the next so they should all be the same price.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2007, 00:54 
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Totally agree, Barb, I wouldn't have the nerve to charge more for my colour, its like saying my puppies are better than yours! and since the people I know are good and experienced breeders, that is nonsense. If I choose to spend a lot on going abroad for a stud then that is my choice and doesnt make a pet pup from the litter anymore worthwhile than if I had found one in the next county. There is a sort of feeling about how much pups should be in your breed and if you are much higher or lower then you will be criticized.
I dont know what you consider to be a high price for a stud?, I expect a pup or price of pup as my dog will only be used if I am interested in the litter. If the litter was small then one really cant expect that much..
The big problem is that, in a high priced market, everyone with a dog thinks that their dog is worthy to be bred, and the painful truth is that in most cases they aren't! Thats just as true for pedigree dogs as labradoodles. Only a small percentage of any breed of dog should be bred as there must be reasonable certainty of happy homes for the pups..

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2007, 19:42 
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wow after reading a lot in the last couple days.. have found that its way way to much to deal with.. i think i will leave that to the pros!

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Last edited by brandy on 10 Sep 2007, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2007, 06:39 
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i would have to say, as a non breeder myself, that most pet dogs arent suitable for breeding.

the breed does have to carry on, but if you want the labradoodle to be a breed that is taken seriously, there does have to be consistancies in the breed.

You have to think about coat type, body shape and temperment- and usually when you buy the puppy there is a no breeding contract (and there should be for all good breeders, if you want to buy a breeding bitch then inform the breeder of that) and there is a REASON for that contract.

but this is only my opinion- if you look at all the labradoodles needing new homes and the trouble some people have finding GOOD homes for their puppies, i dont think i could take on that heartache.

xxx

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2007, 15:20 
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I dont know if you have read about the new antenatel classes we have started (dogs Today Oct)but it seems to work really well,We do it included in the price and it really brings home to people what they have to expect,(with raising a doodle that is) if people then decide to back out that is better than them taking on what they cant cope with,we can arrange for anyone to have this class for any litters they may breed,Please let me know if you are interested,

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2007, 20:30 
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First of all let me start by saying I am not even a doodle owner ( yet? ) let alone a breeder. My comments are not aimed at anyone, as I have not been visiting here long enough to know anyone. Up until a couple of months ago, when I first started to look for a puppy for me and my family, I had never even heard of doodles. Since that time I have read the forums every day, and been actively searching for a puppy.
The things I have noticed are these -
Doodle pups range in price by a huge amount.
There are absolutely loads of Labradoodle puppies available on the internet.
The prices seem to have gone up a lot recently.

My view is that with the sudden increase in interest in Labradoodles along with the increased breeding of these adorable dogs, I personally believe the ' market ' will become saturated and there will be more puppies than their are people seeking them, therefore there will be more puppies/dogs need rescueing. I think many people are rushing into buying a ' teddy bear lookalike ' without realising, first of all how big they grow, and also how much time they need grooming.

For these reasons I have registered with labradoodle rescue rather than purchase a puppy.


I know this site has many very very responsible breeders, my main concern is that the high price tag the doodles are currently obtaining will ( and I think has already ) attracts others less scrupulous. I have to be honest, I don't understand the price tag which in some cases is a lot higher than a pedigree dog.

May I end by saying, I am totally and utterly besotted with the doodle. I really hope this ' new breed ' ( sorry if that's the wrong term - I really am a novice ) thrives, but I personally am quite scared when looking around at how many are available. Surely it would be better if there were less doodles around than there were people offering homes, rather than too many people trying to make a ' fast buck ' from their pets.

I really hope I have not offended anyone, I really am only speaking from a personal point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding , is it for you?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2007, 21:29 
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You certaintly haven't offended me, I totally agree with you about the price for pups. Some people justify their prices by saying their dogs are of better quality or better reared. It's all nonsense, (leaving aside puppy farmers who churn out pups badly reared, poorly fed, in filthy conditions they won't let you see and unsocialised). If a breeder wishes to do extra then that is their choice and not something they should expect potential puppy owners to pay extra for. My pups leave me, fully wormed, (some vaccinated depends on age), vet checked, full puppy pack with care info and return info, 4 gen pedigree (further back if wished), health certificates for parents, food, toys, photos of parents and puppy pics at various stages , receipt of purchase and as much knowledge and information about diet, care and training that I can pass on.

It all depends on what you consider to be a reasonable price! I personally consider anything over £650 for a cross breed dog to be unreasonable and would question why a breeder feels it necessary to charge more!

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