According to the senior vet at our practise yesterday, you must be a quallified vetarnairy nurse covered by the practises insurance to be in a routine neuter op.

That is at your vets and your vet insurers, I have always done this at my old vets in Essex and my new ones here.

I only use the senior vet at both practise's

I'm not trying to sell any pups on this site or anywhere else at the moment. Breeds where the neutering has been done to early (4 months of age) now have some of those dogs sitting with breed rescue or the owners are having to adjust to the health and behaviour problems there dogs now have. No other breed does ESN.

As we all know the KC endorsements are not worth the paper they are writtern on. If someone is hell bent on breeding and reg the pups from endorsed parents there are well known ways of getting it lifted. We all know the phase used when selling pups "sold without KC papers as we are only selling them as pets".

A vet with a sense of humour. Or were you sold the dog with the problem already noted by the breeder and their vet as it was done in the womb.
A problem seen in toy and miniature poodle litters when there are to many pups in the womb. They leave the breeder with covering vet letters and are not normally sold as the new owner may well face vet bills in the furture.

I wish the ASD breeders had a choice as to whether to do ESN or not. At the moment they are tied to a contract. If they break the contract they can't breed ASDs so it's obvious they will promote ESN whether they agree with it or not. I wonder if there was any way they could challenge it with whoever set it up (Rutland Manor or Tegan ?)

I think more research needs to be done on ESN. At the moment buying an ESN puppy is a bit of a gamble. It's a shame there aren't more people on this forum with older ESN dogs so that they can reassure new buyers that their dogs are healthy (or otherwise ).

Yes I have to ESN my pups but if I was keeping one just as a pet, I would choose to have it ESN, I do believe in it, I believe it is better for them, and last year I got two kittens, they didn't cost me a penny and I choose to have them ESN, I believe it was the right thing to do they didn't act like they had anything done, and they are the best friendliest cats ever, but lets hope they don't keep growing or I could have tigers in a few years!!

Just as a matter of interest, why would you need to stay and watch the early spey neuter procedure every time it is done?

I don't have to! I choose to!!!

I think it the reason my vets lets me do this is because every thing is clean and done how it should be and they have nothing to hide!!

Another reply. Interesting one.
This is from the Dog's Trust

Thank you for your email to Dogs Trust.

When we rehome dogs we ensure that they are either neutered before they go to their new home or we provide a voucher to assist with the cost of neutering.

If the dog cannot be neutered before being rehomed, usually because it is too young, we give the new owner the option to either come back to the rehoming centre to have the dog neutered free of charge or they are given a voucher to the value of £75 towards the cost of the operation at a participating vet practice.

We have a database at Dogs Trust on which we can trace whether neutering vouchers have been redeemed. If the voucher is not redeemed after a certain period of time, a reminder letter is sent to the owner to tell them to get the dog neutered. This letter will keep being generated until the neutering takes place.

Our advice to people is that it is best to carry out neutering from the age of 4 months onwards.

Hope this helps. Please contact us if you have further questions

Interesting reading. http://www.angelswish.org/documents/SpayNeuterPaper.pdf

Veterinary science is just that a science. Knowledge changes with time and all we can do is make an informed choice. There may not be a definitive answer to this in our lifetimes

As long as each owner and breeder takes the information available and does what they believe to be the best for their animals and breed then we should all be happy.

Please put you anger towards those that intentionally hurt animals.

My dog probably did have the problem when we bought him but it certainly wasn't evident to me or my own vet and I am confident Lisa could not have known about it either. It did not become evident for a few months. Your suggestion that Lisa sold me a dog knowing there were problems with him is unwarranted. I can only say that reaction when I informed her was exactly what I would expect from a good breeder. Please don't judge everybody else by your own standards.

Here is a report from Cornell Uni on the above report

http://www.sheltermedicine.vet.cornell. ... /young.htm

Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"*
Lisa M. Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS
Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Section Department of Veterinary Small Animal Clinical Sciences
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences
Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77843


I have written a rebuttal to Dr. Zink's article entitled "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete" in which Dr. Zink attempts to make an argument for revisiting the "standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age." In his discussion, Dr. Zink quotes manuscripts incorrectly in some instances, doesn't present all of the data from given studies (ie, misrepresenting the findings of the studies) in other instances, and doesn't include the interpretation of the data by the study's authors (leading to erroneous interpretations of some data by Dr. Zink) in yet other instances. While I typically don't write rebuttals to others' writings, or opinions (after all, we are all entitled to our opinions), the multiple errors and misrepresentations of the scientific literature quoted in this dissertation compelled me to "set the record straight" with regard to the literature being incorrectly cited by Dr. Zink. While I respectfully disagree with Dr. Zink's opinion on the appropriate age at which to spay and castrate dogs not intended for breeding, my primary purpose for this rebuttal is to present the literature that Dr. Zink cites in a more accurate, and more complete, fashion so that the veterinarian reader may reach their own conclusions regarding the most appropriate time to spay or castrate the nonbreeding animal, based upon accurate representation of the scientific literature.

One for Joanneday
You seem to take a scientific and balanced view, what about this?

http://www2.dcn.org/orgs/ddtc/sfiles/Lo ... InDogs.pdf

Thanks dtree

The author of this article reproduces the findings of other people's research without analysing it so its not particularly illuminating in my view although it provides enough references to allow you to research the subject in depth (if you felt the need)
It's also not written about ESN but spaying/neutering in general

As to my own view I don't think I'd have any health worries about buying a puppy that had been ESN
Theres's no way on earth I'd ever pay the vastly inflated sums of money that seem to be asked for these dogs though particularly if i couldn't choose to have a litter of my own if i wanted (appropriately health tested of course)

As to the 'we have to ESN because we're legally obliged to' argument - what a load of bunkum
The australians are hardly going to come over here and sue are they?
And even if they did could there be any reason for it to be done that would stand up in a court of law?

(Ok I'm ducking now)