Vaccinating and Tite testing

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susieQ
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Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by susieQ » 28 Nov 2013, 11:38

A friend is thinking of going the no vaccinating/Tite testing route, and after reading up on it I thought I'd get your opinions :) Anyone gone down this road/had experience of this? It makes interesting reading, especially Schultz's opinions. (If you're not sure what I'm talking about, it's best to google it as I'm not very good at explaining things lol!)

Thanks guys :)
Sue and Rosie
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Bid
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Bid » 28 Nov 2013, 14:55

Yes I am. My vets use a 3-year protocol, and this year Daisy was due the full whammy, so I had her titre tested instead. She had immunity for distemper and parvo - her parvo titre was sky-high which suggests she has been in contact with the virus recently!

I did have her vaccinated against lepto, although I know that vaccs is not recommended. My vet was happy to go along with my decision re the parvo & distemper, but as we live in a rural location and she does see lepto she felt Daisy should have that one.
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susieQ
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by susieQ » 28 Nov 2013, 18:15

Oops that should be Titer (spelling) :roll:

Thanks Bid, I see a lot of discussion coming up with my doggies mates.
Sue and Rosie
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beeeerock

Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by beeeerock » 28 Nov 2013, 19:02

The reason vaccinatable diseases are under control is essentially due to vaccines being used. The vaccines are not typically dangerous, so I see no reason why a titre for each animal would be performed before a vaccination is administered... if that is what your friend is suggesting?

Having said that, I believe the vets have a bit of a scam going, recalling animals for 'annual boosters'. In actual fact, the vaccines are usually good for 2 to 3 years and a bit of web research will fine tune that number for each vaccine. What I see in the Schultz stuff is essentially whistle-blowing against this 'annual boosters' program that is so commonplace. While I didn't go searching for all his papers, what I did read was the results of titre testing against time, looking for the typical effective life of a vaccination. I did NOT see it as a suggestion that we should all do titres to decide when to inoculate again, but rather lab evidence that we don't need to do it as often as we generally do (and the vets recommend!).

Vaccines aren't like antibiotics, because they can't be over-prescribed and create resistant strains of the disease. Walking the fine line with titres makes no sense to me and in my opinion puts your animal in harm's way... not to mention the animals around yours.

susieQ
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by susieQ » 28 Nov 2013, 19:58

Beerock, as I read it, Schultz says that an animal vaccinated fully as a young animal has 5-7 years of immunity, therefore does not need annual boosters, but should be retested in a few years, not every year. My friend is considering Titer testing now, and not having a retest for possibly 3 or more years. Some of the reports we have read (by qualified vets) are saying that vaccines are possibly causing cancers and other illnesses in later life, which are definitely on the increase which begs the question why?. It is not advocating no vaccinating at all, just less after the initial vaccinations. It's an interesting debate and I have not decided one way or the other, but my friend does a LOT of research before making any decisions.
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Bid
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Bid » 28 Nov 2013, 20:21

I think in the UK most vets don't give all the vaccs every year. If you are not sure what your doodle has had, you can look up the sticker on your card here http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/pdf/Vaccine ... sedDog.pdf.

I am undecided what to do when Poppy & Beamish are next due, but Daisy has a poor health record and seems to get a lot of health issues, so because of her apparent vulnerability I decided not to risk unecessary vaccinations due to the health risks now being uncovered, as long as it didn't leave her unprotected. Thankfully she has immunity, and I will get her tested next year as well. It is well worth keeping up with all the current research going on imo, and getting your vet involved too. I was able to update my vet on the in-house titre test availablility, and she is now looking into stocking them, so don't just assume that your vet is up to date with everything! It is also worth checking with your insurance company if thinking about going this route - mine said my cover is still valid, but not for any disease she could have been vacinated against.
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beeeerock

Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by beeeerock » 28 Nov 2013, 20:38

I got the impression different vaccinations lasted different lengths of time. And of course, the efficacy of each tends to taper off with time. So each will have a break point where the immunity starts to fall off at an unacceptable rate. In theory, that would be the time to immunize again, or a bit earlier.

Every animal will likely have a slightly different window of protection. The trick is to come up with a reasonably safe 'catch-all' value that works for dogs in general... and then (THEN!) try to get the vets to buy into the idea and reduce the number of vaccinations they give. I suspect getting the vets on board with the idea of making less money will be the real challenge.

I think there is enough information available now to make an educated guess at the right length of time for each type of re-immunization to avoid doing the titres on every animal patient. If the link between immunizations and cancer was solid, we'd probably be more concerned with finding the right balance... but given all the possible causes of cancers (everything from dyes in the food they eat to the residues of plastic on their toys, fertilizer on the grass etc...), the titre route seems to be a bit over the top in my opinion. If Rabies is good for 5-7 years (assuming that's the number - I thought I'd seen something to say it's less), doing the booster at 5 or maybe 4 years would seem reasonable. Other diseases will require a different time interval. Tracking the immunization record for each patient would also become more challenging... not to mention documentation for crossing borders or even dropping your dog at the kennel for a weekend away.

Given that the impact of contracting a vaccinatable disease is huge to anyone or anything, the minor immune reaction to a vaccine would seem to be insignificant in the scheme of things.

minkersmum
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by minkersmum » 10 Dec 2013, 23:44

This is a subject I too have been researching.

For those who have had titers checked can I ask how the cost of this compared to vaccinations and also how easy was it to test?
Getting a blood sample from a dog isn't as simple as a human.

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Bid
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Bid » 11 Dec 2013, 00:07

There are in house titres tests available now for around £20 I think - lab tests are more.

FOr interest, here are the revised WSAVA guidelines

http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/file ... 202013.pdf
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minkersmum
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by minkersmum » 11 Dec 2013, 10:15

Thanks Bid. Very interesting reading.

Can I ask how easy it was to obtain a blood sample. Can't imagine Jack sitting still enough for successful venepuncture!

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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Doodle Dee » 11 Dec 2013, 11:01

I would love to go to my vet with all this research and nothave Lulu injected but it is very hard to change a certain school of thought that is in your head i.e. vaccinations are preventions.

Regarding insurance - wouldn't it be a very fine line that is walked across - never trust insurance companies unless it is in writing

Since children have stopped being vaccinated against TB - isn't it on the uprise? Also some are not injected against Measles isn't that again on the increase. Would that happen to our dogs.

What is the research regarding vaccinations causing cancers and does the percentage outweigh the reasons for having them injected
Lulu & Dx

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Bid
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Bid » 11 Dec 2013, 12:24

minkersmum wrote:Thanks Bid. Very interesting reading.

Can I ask how easy it was to obtain a blood sample. Can't imagine Jack sitting still enough for successful venepuncture!

The vets are expert at getting blood from uncooperative beasties - they just took Daisy "out back" for a few minutes.

Dee - I have it in writing from the insurance company don't worry! As for the research into the risks - there is a lot about. I value the views of Jean Dodds as one source - if you look her up you will find her views and papers on it, Dr Shultz is another, and there are many respected journals publishing reports all the time. Of course there are also the scaremongers and sensationalist reports too!
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minkersmum
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by minkersmum » 11 Dec 2013, 14:21

I really did lol when I read 'he just took Daisy outback for a few minutes!' Was he having a stern word with her!!!

The difference with the child vaccinations and the dogs are the repetition and frequency. Child immunisation program gives vaccines some repeated a couple of times in the first 18mnth of life and later ones are offered but will test titers first to see if needed, such as the bcg at around, also rubella 13 yrs of age.

The reason we are seeing Measles and other similar things again is that some people are choosing NOT to vaccinate at all. I don't think that NOT vaccinating your dog is the issue here it is about re vaccinating every year unneccessarily which has been linked to various potential health problems later in life. There seems to be many reliable sources saying canine vaccinations should not be done as a matter of course annually. Suggestions have been made thst it would be more appropriate to either test antibody titer levels or vaccinate every three years. It is an easy money maker for vets which is why they will be less thsn keen to change their way of thinking!

I think vaccinating is absolutely neccessary and of course this comes with risks. This is fair enough as protection outways risk although it is worth noting that in a large number of cases of
disease which we routinely vaccinate against dogs had been vaccinated. Vaccination doesn't offer 100% immunity, far from it. What I don't find acceptable is the risk of vaccination when not needed which is completely different.

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Bid
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Re: Vaccinating and Tite testing

Post by Bid » 11 Dec 2013, 17:22

I totally agree. Also, I want my dogs to go to the vets for their annual checkup even if they are not having vaccinations. It is good for a professional to check them over, listen to their hearts, check joints etc. - all the things that I can't check myself, so they won;t mbe missing out on much income :D
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